In his latest Lowdown" podcast, Nick Cohen discusses the 10th anniversary of the Brexit referendum with Mark Leonard, director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, and the significant changes in global politics over the past 10 years since 2016 that make Brexit an even worse decision than it was a decade ago.

They both examine how Europe has moved from a "Kantian" rule-based system to an "unorder" world where international rules no longer have standing, using the Iran conflict as an example of how military actions are now conducted without regard for international law. They discuss Brexit's impact on Britain's position in the world, with Mark Leonard presenting polling data showing that 58% of Leave voters believe Brexit has been bad for border management and that 75% of Britons want closer EU relations.

They discuss how Germany has transformed its energy system and defence posture in response to global challenges, while Britain struggles with infrastructure projects and defence capabilities. Mark explains that British public opinion has shifted from the 2016 Brexit divide to three new groups: "loners" (27% who want to stay out of Europe), "optimists" (30% who would vote to rejoin), and "realists" (35% favouring

closer cooperation), with younger demographics being more pro-European. They conclude with optimism about potential future shifts in British politics toward re-engagement with Europe, particularly if Labour adopts a more pro-European stance.

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@markhleonard Co-Founder & director, @ecfr, bestselling author, latest book THE AGE OF UNPEACE, keynote speaker & weekly podcast host http://

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Nick Cohen's @NichCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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