In this episode, Glenn Wilson, a cybersecurity expert, joins me to explore how systems thinking can reshape how we approach cybersecurity, vulnerability management, and modern digital systems.

Glenn shares his journey from writing about DevSecOps to pursuing a master’s degree in Systems Thinking in Practice at the Open University. His motivation came from recognizing a troubling contradiction that, despite massive investments in cybersecurity, data breaches, ransomware incidents, and security failures continue to rise. This led him to question whether the industry’s largely reductionist approach misses the broader system dynamics at play.

A central part of the discussion focuses on Stafford Beer’s Viable System Model (VSM), a cybernetic framework for understanding how organizations maintain balance and adapt to their environments. Glenn explains how VSM’s five subsystems can be used to diagnose why cybersecurity systems often fail. Rather than viewing security as a set of tools or controls, Glenn argues it should be understood as a living system embedded within larger organizational and risk systems.

The conversation then expands into cybernetics, emergence, and AI, touching on Norbert Wiener, Ross Ashby’s law of requisite variety, and John Boyd’s OODA framework. Together, we discuss how feedback loops, adaptation, and emergent behavior shape both human organizations and AI-driven systems. Glenn raises an important concern: if organizations don’t adopt systems thinking, increasing automation and AI could amplify weaknesses rather than solve them.

We close by reflecting on the relationship between humans, AI, and complex systems. Glenn emphasizes that AI should be treated as a tool within a larger system, not anthropomorphized as human intelligence. The key challenge ahead is understanding how humans and intelligent tools coexist within systems that are adaptive, emergent, and increasingly complex.

The big takeaway: cybersecurity cannot be improved by optimizing isolated parts. Real progress requires understanding the entire system and our place within it.

In this episode, I have an insightful and wide-ranging conversation with Carol Houle, CEO of Inspire Digital Consulting. We explore her career journey across software development, lean supply chain transformation, cloud, and DevOps, and how these experiences led her to a central conviction: leadership is the primary bottleneck in digital transformation.

Carol traces her roots back to early exposure to TQM and W. Edwards Deming during her undergraduate studies and her work at Pricewaterhouse Consulting in the 1990s, where lean principles were applied to supply chains. As Carol moved into larger leadership roles, a consistent pattern emerged: transformation efforts stalled not because of teams or tools, but because leaders themselves were the constraint. Yet leadership is rarely examined.

Carol introduces her book and the Inspired Leadership Framework, which grew organically over a decade of observation, writing, and experimentation. Drawing from her experience spanning business, she distills leadership into measurable dimensions.

Looking forward, Carol connects leadership quality to the coming era of agentic AI. AI will amplify whatever already exists. Weak leadership, unclear purpose, or misaligned incentives will scale into systemic risk. She introduces the idea of “benevolent AI agents” that help detect bias, misalignment, and deviations from stated intent.

Show Notes:

You can learn more about Inspired Digital Consulting and take the Inspired Leadership Assessment here - https://inspiredigitalconsulting.com/

Carol Houle's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolhoule/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I continue the conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom, moving deeper into the origins and intent behind the In2:In Thinking Network and what it truly means to “think about our thinking.”

Bill shares the lesser-known backstory of how In2:In Thinking came to be, from its early roots as the West Coast Quality Forum to the deliberate choice to move beyond Deming’s name alone. He explains why creating new language matters when changing systems, and how words like “quality,” “thinking,” and even “together” can trap us in old meanings unless we consciously redefine them.

The discussion turns to incentives, commissions, and performance management, one of the most difficult and controversial areas of applying Deming’s philosophy. Through real-world examples from sales organizations, manufacturing, and leadership roles, we explore how individual incentives often drive behavior that harms the system as a whole, even when intentions are good. Bill and I unpack why these problems aren’t about “bad people,” but about systems that reward the wrong outcomes.

Lori introduces curiosity as a unifying theme, curiosity not just about external problems, but about our own assumptions, beliefs, and patterns of thinking. We connect curiosity to empathy, beginner’s mind, and the ability to see work as “part of” a larger system rather than isolated tasks. From parenting to leadership to organizational design, the conversation highlights how asking better questions can unlock better action.

The episode closes by reinforcing a critical point: In2:In Thinking is not about endless reflection. Thinking about thinking must ultimately lead to better decisions, better cooperation, and better results. This balance between mindfulness and action, reflection, and delivery is at the heart of Deming’s work and the mission of the In2:In Thinking Network.