In this episode of The Brian Green Show, Jordan Harbertson, co-founder of MTN OPS and serial entrepreneur, joins the podcast for a deeply personal conversation about faith, family, and business that goes far beyond the typical "how I built my company" story. Jordan opens up about growing up in an entrepreneurial family in Farmington, Utah, the lessons his father (former Farmington mayor Scott Harbertson) taught him through childhood businesses like lemonade stands and basketball card machines, and the lifelong struggle with depression and self-worth that shaped his drive to succeed. He breaks down the philosophy behind MTN OPS's explosive growth, why he ignored spreadsheets and CAC metrics in favor of building genuine human connection, and how that approach turned customers into "crusaders" loyal enough to tattoo the brand on their skin. The conversation closes with hard-won advice on work-life balance, prioritizing family as a father and entrepreneur, and the one question every founder needs to answer before building a brand.

5 Key Takeaways:

1. People over metrics: the real secret to brand loyalty. Jordan reveals that in MTN OPS's first six years, he never looked at a spreadsheet or tracked CAC, AOV, or CPA. Instead, he obsessed over human connection, a strategy that turned everyday customers into brand "crusaders" loyal enough to get MTN OPS tattoos.
2. Find your "why" before you build a business or brand. Jordan argues that any brand built without a strong, human-rooted "why" is meaningless. A business survives adversity only when its founder's purpose is bigger than profit or looking cool to peers.
3. Entrepreneurial roots run in families, and so do the lessons. Jordan traces his business instincts back through four generations of Harbertsons, sharing how his father turned a childhood lemonade-stand idea into a real-world lesson on profit, competition, and innovation.
4. Mental health and entrepreneurship: the hidden struggle behind the success. Despite his high-energy public persona, Jordan opens up about a lifelong battle with depression and self-worth, and how his father's mantra, "your attitude will always determine your altitude," became a foundational tool for resilience.
5. Redefining work-life balance as a founder and father. Jordan shares how he shifted his time allocation to 60% family and 40% business after recognizing that early sacrifices for career growth can pay off later, when kids need a present father most.

Episode Summary

Michael McKnight is one of ultra running's most decorated athletes — a two-time Triple Crown winner, Cocodona 250 champion, and former Colorado Trail FKT holder who once completed a 100-mile race with zero calorie intake. But this episode isn't just about race results.

Brian sits down with Michael to talk about what happened when everything stopped: a severe herniated disc that left Michael unable to get out of bed without his wife's help, a surgery date on the calendar, and a sport he wasn't sure he wanted anymore. What followed was a remarkable comeback — winning a 300-mile race two months after his surgery was supposed to happen, then a top-10 finish at Cocodona weeks later.

Michael shares the full story of his legendary 2023 Cocodona win — how he woke up 33 miles behind the leaders at mile 75 and, with nothing but belief and his wife's four-word reset ("just go have fun"), came back to win the race and break the course record by three hours. He also opens up about burnout in elite sport, the divine intervention he believes healed his back, the mantras on his bedroom whiteboard, and why he believes God ordained him to inspire average people to chase extraordinary dreams.

Whether you run ultras or just want to understand what it takes to fight through your lowest moments in business, faith, or family — this one's for you.

Key Takeaways

1. Burnout can be a gift in disguise. Michael's herniated disc — as painful and shattering as it was — became the reset he didn't know he needed. It forced him to decide whether ultra running was still his life. The moment he committed, things started turning around.

2. Belief before evidence is what separates finishers. Down 33 miles and 10+ hours at mile 75 of a 250-mile race, Michael told his crew he was still going to win — and set a course record. Not after he had proof. Before. That level of conviction, not talent, is what he coaches people toward.

3. The right crew changes everything. Michael's wife didn't give him a pep talk. She told him to stop whining and go have fun. Sometimes the most powerful thing your people can do is cut through the spiral and hand you back your own joy.

4. Resilience requires failure as a prerequisite. Michael's coaching philosophy is built on this: you can't bounce back if you never went down. He reframes failure not as something to fear, but as the raw material resilience is made of.

5. Less pressure, better performance. His best races consistently come when he removes the weight of expectation. It's not a fluke — it's a pattern he's learned to deploy intentionally.

6. His ways are greater than your plan. Michael ties faith directly to the sport — acknowledging that his most meaningful wins didn't unfold the way he imagined, and being grateful for that. Patience through adversity isn't passive. It's the actual work.

7. The back of the pack is stronger than the front. Michael and Rachel Antrigan (the Cocodona women's winner) both showed up at the finish line to cheer in a finisher who was bent nearly 90 degrees from "the lean" — and had been out there over five days. In ultra running, mutual respect runs deep because suffering is universal.

8. Average people don't try because they fear failure, not because they lack ability. Michael believes almost anyone can finish an ultra if they have desire. The real obstacle is the fear of looking like they can't.

In this episode Brian Green sits down with Pernell Agdeppa, Executive Director of Real Estate Legal at Panda Restaurant Group, for a conversation that covers far more than restaurant deals. Pernell shares the origin story of Panda Express from a family-run Pasadena restaurant in 1973 to 2,600 locations nationwide and how he found his own way in, not through a recruiter, but through a wake-up call that literally happened on a freeway near Panda's headquarters. The two dig into what it means to negotiate from a place of integrity, how servant leadership plays out in a high-growth real estate legal department, and the football coach whose lessons still echo decades later. If you've ever felt burned out, wondered if working smarter beats working harder, or wanted to lead in a way that actually earns loyalty this one's for you.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

1. You can't fax a handshake. In a world of email and Slack, picking up the phone to build rapport before the negotiation starts is a competitive advantage most people leave on the table.
2. Work hard — but zoom out. Hard work misapplied is still wasted. Ask not just "am I working hard?" but "am I channeling it in the right direction?"
3. Win-win or no deal isn't just a nice idea — it's a growth strategy. When you're opening 100 stores a year, burning bridges with sellers and landlords is a business problem.
4. Success is the stories people tell about you when you're not in the room. Reputation compounds quietly over a career.
5. Servant leadership starts with what you wish you'd had. Think back to when you needed direction and didn't get it. Now give that to someone else.
6. Buy in. Conviction is contagious. You can't lead people into something you haven't bought into yourself.
7. Forgive yourself. Do the best with what you've got — and as you learn better, do better.