What happens when the life you built—carefully, faithfully, and very publicly—splits down the middle in a single night?

This week on Typology, we're revisiting one of the most powerful conversations we've had on the show—a replay of my interview with bestselling author and cultural truth-teller Jen Hatmaker.

Jen, an Enneagram Three with a courageous edge that sometimes looks a lot like an Eight, joined me to talk about her memoir Awake and the "before-and-after date" that changed everything—July 11, 2020— when her 26-year marriage ended and the life she knew cracked wide open.

In this conversation, we explore what it means to wake up in midlife:

• to grief and betrayal,

• to shedding scripts you never consciously chose,

• to loosening your grip on approval,

• and to discovering what actually matters in the second half of life.

We also dig into how Threes navigate identity, success, and failure—especially when life refuses to follow the plan. Jen shares how therapy, embodiment work, and radical honesty helped her rebuild—not for optics, but for something sturdier and truer.

If you're in a season of change—or if life has recently pulled the rug out from under you—this episode still hits with the same quiet force. Think of it as a hand on your shoulder and a light for the next few steps.

ABOUT JEN HATMAKER

Jen Hatmaker is a bestselling author, award-winning podcaster, speaker, and fierce advocate for women living in freedom and agency. With 14 books—including four New York Times bestsellers—along with her beloved For the Love podcast, Jen Hatmaker Book Club, and more, she reaches millions with her signature mix of humor, vulnerability, and wisdom. Her newest book, AWAKE: A Memoir, (released on September 23, 2025), chronicles her raw, real-time journey through the shocking end of her 26-year marriage and surprising reinvention. She lives in a creaky old farmhouse, loves 90s country, and drinks Almond Joy creamer like it's a personality trait. Find her at JenHatmaker.com.

There are some conversations that don't just inform you—they find you. This was one of those for me.

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Dudley Delffs—author, therapist, and a fellow self-preservation Four—and what unfolds is less of an interview and more of an honest, unguarded conversation between two people who've spent a lifetime trying to tell the truth about their lives…and sometimes wondering what it costs to do that.

We talk about the long journey of being a Four—the early years of feeling different, the instinct to hide parts of your story, and the slow, sometimes painful work of learning how to bring those parts into the light. Along the way, we wander into territory that might feel familiar: creativity, envy, addiction, belonging, and that quiet, persistent question many of us carry: What have I done with my life?

And yet, this isn't a heavy conversation—it's a human one. There's laughter, there's tenderness, and there are a few moments where something deeper breaks through…the kind of moments that remind me why I love doing this work in the first place.

If you've ever felt like you don't quite fit—even in rooms where you clearly do…
If you've wrestled with whether your story is too much—or somehow not enough…
Or if you're trying to make peace with your past without losing who you are in the process…

I think this conversation might meet you right where you are.

Come listen.

Most leaders think workplace problems are about strategy, performance, or communication. But what if the real issue is something deeper—something invisible shaping how people interpret everything that happens at work?

In this episode of Typology, Anthony and I explore how the Enneagram reveals the hidden motivations driving behavior inside teams and leadership groups. When people begin to understand why they—and their colleagues—think, react, and communicate the way they do, everything starts to shift.

We talk about what happens when organizations move beyond personality labels and start using the Enneagram as a practical tool for leadership, conflict, and culture.

If you lead people, work on a team, or have ever wondered why certain workplace dynamics keep repeating themselves… this conversation might change the way you see your office forever.