What is church actually supposed to look like?
In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by pastor, author, and musician Tommy Preson Phillips to explore why so many people are rethinking the way church has been practiced.
Tommy, co-author of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, shares why so many people are walking away from church—not because they’ve lost faith, but because they no longer see Jesus reflected in the systems they’ve inherited. Together, they examine how layers of tradition, power, and cultural assumptions have shaped modern church structures, and what it might look like to strip things back to something more honest, relational, and rooted in the way of Jesus.
From the early church’s radically inclusive communities to the rise of institutional models, this conversation wrestles with what’s essential, what might be worth letting go of, and how spiritual community could be reimagined today.
If you’ve ever felt disconnected from church but still long for faith, belonging, and a more authentic way of following Jesus, this episode offers a hopeful place to explore.

Continue to learn from Tommy Preson Phillips:
Substack
Instagram: @tommypresonphillips
Read Tommy’s Book:
Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ by Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips
Listen to Tommy’s Music:
www.presonphillips.com

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com
Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Have our beliefs about God limited people with disabilities from living full lives?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by disabled scholar-practitioner, author, and advocate Dr. Amy Kenny, who also serves as the director of the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown University, to examine the ways Christian theology has often treated disabled people as broken, incomplete, or in need of fixing.

Together, they explore how ideas about the fall, healing, and heaven have shaped the church’s relationship to disability—and how those beliefs can reinforce ableism, even when intentions are good. Amy invites us to reconsider familiar biblical stories through the lens of disability theology, asking what we miss when disabled people are treated as objects of ministry rather than trusted theological voices.

This conversation challenges assumptions about healing, access, and belonging, while pointing toward a more expansive vision of the kingdom of God—one where disabled people are not sidelined, but centered.

If you’ve ever sensed that the church’s understanding of disability might be too narrow, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect and learn from disabled wisdom.

Continue to learn from Dr. Amy Kenny:
Instagram: @dramykenny

Read Amy’s Books:
My Body Is Not a Prayer Request: Disability Justice in the Church
My Disability Is Divine: A Joyful Witness That Defies Ableist Nonsense

Learn more about the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown:
https://disabilityculture.georgetown.edu/

Special thanks to Charlie French for the inspiration and for allowing us to showcase his art.
Find him on Instagram: @charliefrenchfineart
And visit our YouTube page to view his art at the top of this week's episode.

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Is evangelism always good news?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by theologian, activist, and author Dr. Randy Woodley to rethink one of the most central practices in modern Christianity: evangelism.

Dr. Woodley, a theologian and longtime advocate for Indigenous wisdom in the church, invites us to consider how evangelism has often been shaped by Platonic assumptions rather than the teachings of Jesus. Together they explore the difference between sharing good news and imposing belief—and what a more humble, relational approach to faith might look like.

Instead of asking how to convert people, this episode asks a deeper question: what if the good news of Jesus looks less like persuasion and more like learning, listening, and mutual transformation?

If you’ve ever wondered whether the way Christianity has been shared reflects the heart of Jesus, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect.

Continue to learn from Dr. Randy Woodley:
https://www.randywoodley.com/
Instagram: @eloheheagleswings
Substack

Read Randy’s Books:
Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Lead Us to Harmony and Well-Being
Indigenous Theology and the Western Worldview: A Decolonized Approach to Christian Doctrine
And Many More

Learn more and visit Eloheh:
https://www.eloheh.org/

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.