What is church actually supposed to look like?
In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by pastor, author, and musician Tommy Preson Phillips to explore why so many people are rethinking the way church has been practiced.
Tommy, co-author of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, shares why so many people are walking away from church—not because they’ve lost faith, but because they no longer see Jesus reflected in the systems they’ve inherited. Together, they examine how layers of tradition, power, and cultural assumptions have shaped modern church structures, and what it might look like to strip things back to something more honest, relational, and rooted in the way of Jesus.
From the early church’s radically inclusive communities to the rise of institutional models, this conversation wrestles with what’s essential, what might be worth letting go of, and how spiritual community could be reimagined today.
If you’ve ever felt disconnected from church but still long for faith, belonging, and a more authentic way of following Jesus, this episode offers a hopeful place to explore.

Continue to learn from Tommy Preson Phillips:
Substack
Instagram: @tommypresonphillips
Read Tommy’s Book:
Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ by Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips
Listen to Tommy’s Music:
www.presonphillips.com

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com
Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Have our beliefs about God limited people with disabilities from living full lives?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by disabled scholar-practitioner, author, and advocate Dr. Amy Kenny, who also serves as the director of the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown University, to examine the ways Christian theology has often treated disabled people as broken, incomplete, or in need of fixing.

Together, they explore how ideas about the fall, healing, and heaven have shaped the church’s relationship to disability—and how those beliefs can reinforce ableism, even when intentions are good. Amy invites us to reconsider familiar biblical stories through the lens of disability theology, asking what we miss when disabled people are treated as objects of ministry rather than trusted theological voices.

This conversation challenges assumptions about healing, access, and belonging, while pointing toward a more expansive vision of the kingdom of God—one where disabled people are not sidelined, but centered.

If you’ve ever sensed that the church’s understanding of disability might be too narrow, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect and learn from disabled wisdom.

Continue to learn from Dr. Amy Kenny:
Instagram: @dramykenny

Read Amy’s Books:
My Body Is Not a Prayer Request: Disability Justice in the Church
My Disability Is Divine: A Joyful Witness That Defies Ableist Nonsense

Learn more about the Disability Cultural Center at Georgetown:
https://disabilityculture.georgetown.edu/

Special thanks to Charlie French for the inspiration and for allowing us to showcase his art.
Find him on Instagram: @charliefrenchfineart
And visit our YouTube page to view his art at the top of this week's episode.

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Is evangelism always good news?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by theologian, activist, and author Dr. Randy Woodley to rethink one of the most central practices in modern Christianity: evangelism.

Dr. Woodley, a theologian and longtime advocate for Indigenous wisdom in the church, invites us to consider how evangelism has often been shaped by Platonic assumptions rather than the teachings of Jesus. Together they explore the difference between sharing good news and imposing belief—and what a more humble, relational approach to faith might look like.

Instead of asking how to convert people, this episode asks a deeper question: what if the good news of Jesus looks less like persuasion and more like learning, listening, and mutual transformation?

If you’ve ever wondered whether the way Christianity has been shared reflects the heart of Jesus, this conversation offers a thoughtful place to reflect.

Continue to learn from Dr. Randy Woodley:
https://www.randywoodley.com/
Instagram: @eloheheagleswings
Substack

Read Randy’s Books:
Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Lead Us to Harmony and Well-Being
Indigenous Theology and the Western Worldview: A Decolonized Approach to Christian Doctrine
And Many More

Learn more and visit Eloheh:
https://www.eloheh.org/

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Is there a way for leaders to make things right after causing real harm?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by Joshua Harris, author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, to reflect on purity culture, the damage it caused, and what it looks like to confront the consequences of ideas that shaped an entire generation.

Together, they talk about the shame, fear, and distorted theology that purity culture embedded in so many of us—and what happens when a leader begins to listen to the people harmed by their work. Josh shares the long, uneasy process of rethinking his beliefs, stepping away from systems that rewarded certainty, and trying to respond with honesty rather than defensiveness.

This conversation doesn’t offer easy closure. Instead, it explores repentance as something slower, costlier, and more complicated than simply a public apology.

If you’ve ever wondered whether repair is possible after real harm has been done, this episode offers a thoughtful place to begin.

For more from Josh Harris:
https://joshharris.com
Instagram: @harris.josh

Listen to Josh’s Podcast:
Clear & Loud with Josh Harris

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

Are you finding it hard to call yourself a Christian right now—even if you still love Jesus? What do you do when people who share your faith carry beliefs that feel impossible to reconcile?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by writer and journalist Sara Billups to explore how to navigate ideological and theological differences without defaulting to cutting people off—or shutting down curiosity.

Sara reflects on how fear-based frameworks from the 80s and 90s shaped so many of us, from rapture narratives and “Left Behind” anxiety to the way politics and religion have become tangled in the American church. Together, they talk about how these inherited theologies still live in our bodies and our communities—and how we can examine them honestly without losing each other.

If you’ve ever felt torn between conviction and connection, this episode offers thoughtful language for the way forward.

Continue to learn from Sara Billups:
www.sarabillups.com
Instagram: @sara.billups
Threads
Substack

Read Sara’s Books:
Nervous Systems: Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics
Orphaned Believers: How a Generation of Christian Exiles Can Find the Way Home

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

At some point, the question shifts. It’s no longer just: What do I believe? It becomes something deeper and more personal: Do I stay Christian?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Chris McLeod and Lauren Ranzino are joined by author, speaker, and theologian Brian McLaren to explore what it means to be a Christian and look at a faith tradition that has, at times, caused real harm or disappointment. Brian discusses the tension between belonging and integrity, doubt and commitment, and the complicated work of deciding whether to stay, leave, or redefine what staying even means.

Rather than offering a formula or final answer, this conversation examines the cost and courage involved in each path.

What does it look like to remain connected to Christianity without denying its failures? And how do we discern whether staying is an act of faithfulness – or fear? This episode offers language, perspective, and a thoughtful way to sit with these questions.

Continue to learn from Brian McLaren: www.brianmclaren.net
Center for Action and Contemplation: https://cac.org/

Listen to Brian’s podcast: Learning How to See

Read Brian’s Books:
Do I Stay Christian?: A Guide for the Doubters, the Disappointed, and the Disillusioned
Faith After Doubt: Why Your Beliefs Stopped Working and What to Do About It
and MANY MORE here.

Have a question or topic you want us to explore?
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

How often have you been told that the Bible is clear—only to feel confused, unsettled, or even harmed by the way it’s been taught or used?

In this episode of Holy Uncertain, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod are joined by pastor, author, and co-founder of the Post-Evangelical Collective, Zach Lambert, to discuss how we might engage Scripture as a tool of healing rather than a weapon of harm.

Together, they explore how interpretation is shaped by different lenses—and why questioning the way we’ve learned to read the Bible doesn’t have to mean abandoning it. Instead, they consider how faithful engagement can begin with re-examination and, at times, unlearning.

If reading the Bible has ever felt confusing, harmful, or disconnected from the life you’re trying to live, this episode offers a steadier path forward.

Continue to learn from Zach Lambert:
www.zachwlambert.org
Instagram: @zachwlambert
Facebook
Substack

Read Zach’s book:
Better Ways to Read the Bible

What are you uncertain about? We want to know.
Email us at: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.

How many times have you asked Jesus into your heart? In this episode of Holy Uncertain, we turn to a question many of us thought we already knew the answer to: What is the gospel?
Joined by theologian, activist, and author Lisa Sharon Harper, hosts Lauren Ranzino and Chris McLeod explore how familiar definitions of “the good news” can feel insufficient when we’re facing real grief, suffering, and injustice.

This conversation holds space for honesty about doubt and pain, while Lisa shares a broader, more rooted vision of hope—one that isn’t just something we believe, but something we live out through our care for one another and the world around us.

If you’ve ever wondered whether the gospel was meant to be more than a ticket into heaven, then this episode is for you.

Continue to learn from Lisa Sharon Harper:
www.LisaSharonHarper.com
Instagram: @lisasharonharper
Substack

Read Lisa’s incredible books:
The Very Good Gospel
Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All
And MANY MORE here.

What are you uncertain about? We want to know.
Email us: questions@holyuncertain.com

Holy Uncertain is a Blue Elevator production.