Episode 152 of The Fifth Court features a very special guest: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia

Interviewed by Mark Tottenham BL at Dalkey Book Festival.

This is not just a tech-founder interview. It is a fascinating conversation about law, trust, neutrality, rules, evidence, platform responsibility, AI hallucinations, volunteer communities, public knowledge and why Wikipedia has survived while much of the internet has become angrier, noisier and less trusted.

Jimmy explains why Wikipedia’s neutral point of view matters, why “assume good faith” is more practical than naïve, how Wikipedia deals with vandalism, why AI can invent very convincing false sources, why WikiNews did not work, and why Wikipedia avoided the advertising model that turned so much of the web into clickbait.

Jimmy's cultural recommendation, a book by the late author Ray Bradbury, 'Something Wicked this Way Comes'.

Before the interview, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL discuss three recent cases from the Decisis Casebook, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners: the Supreme Court on “no foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements; a drink-driving blood-specimen chain-of-custody case; and a murder conviction quashed because of an unbalanced judicial charge to the jury.

00:00 – Intro: Episode 152

01:47 – Decisis Casebook sponsor: Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners

02:00 – “No foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements

03:29 – Drink-driving conviction and blood-specimen chain of custody

04:34 – Murder conviction quashed over judicial charge to jury

06:03 – Jimmy Wales interview begins

06:43 – Why Wikipedia was hard to compete with

07:58 – Neutral point of view and controversial topics

09:49 – How Wikipedia’s rules developed

11:40 – Volunteer communities and optimism about people

15:12 – Why a wiki works for an encyclopedia, but maybe not for poetry

17:03 – Why Wikipedia is vandal-proof

18:30 – Jimmy Wales: “Queen Elizabeth II, not Henry VIII”

20:07 – Arbitration committees and Wikipedia governance

21:24 – Wikipedia in 150–300 languages

23:31 – What workplaces can learn from volunteers

29:06 – Audrey Tang, Taiwan and digital consensus

32:10 – “Assume good faith”

34:25 – ChatGPT, fake ISBNs and made-up legal cases

37:17 – Law enforcement and good faith

39:03 – Why WikiNews did not really work

44:12 – Constitutional change and institutional deadlock

49:37 – Platforms, publishers and free speech

50:25 – Why Wikipedia did not become an ad machine

53:04 – Jimmy Wales’ book recommendation: Something Wicked This Way Comes

54:33 – Outro

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In Part 2 of our extended interview with retired Supreme Court judge Mr Justice Peter Charleton, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL continue a remarkable conversation about life at the Bar, life on the Bench, and life after the Supreme Court.

Peter Charleton speaks about the reality of appearing in high-profile criminal cases, the discipline of addressing juries, why a good advocate must be able to hold attention, and why, in court, “your job is basically to stay on the horse”.

He discusses the emotional weight of criminal work, the dangers of lawyers mistaking themselves for victims, the Morris Tribunal, the call to the High Court, the pressure of judgment writing, and the move from sitting alone in the High Court to deciding cases with colleagues in the Supreme Court.

There is also a fascinating discussion on the length of modern judgments, why digital searches are different from physical searches, how Supreme Court judges deal with disagreement, and whether advocacy still matters in an age of written submissions.

And, in a lovely final turn, Peter Charleton reflects on retirement, family, music, film, War and Peace, Clint Eastwood, and why music, in his view, is a higher form of reasoning than law.

Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook, with thanks to the sponsor of the Decisis casebook discussion, Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, who specialise in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate.

LSRA v O’Brien

A solicitor was prohibited from practising in his own right for 10 years following serious misconduct and repeated non-compliance with undertakings. The High Court stressed that its role in reviewing LSRA determinations is not a rubber-stamping exercise.

LSRA v Salabi

An overseas lawyer seeking to practise in Ireland could not rely on Belgian professional indemnity cover. The court held that the foreign cover did not meet the Irish regulatory requirements.

Foreign Births Register citizenship challenge

A challenge to the requirement that foreign-born children be registered on the Foreign Births Register before acquiring Irish citizenship was rejected, with the court finding no particular injustice in the requirement.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction and Part 2 preview

00:48 Decisis casebook discussion, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners

03:49 Peter Charleton interview resumes

04:31 High-profile criminal cases and staying on the horse

05:15 Addressing juries and holding attention

07:13 Worrying about cases and professional regret

08:08 Criminal work, vicarious trauma and perspective

09:03 The Morris Tribunal and Donegal

10:37 The call to the High Court

11:43 Why judging was not easier than being a barrister

13:48 How to write a judgment

15:46 Are modern judgments too long?

18:07 Digital searches and privacy

19:52 Moving from the High Court to the Supreme Court

20:22 Keeping an open mind on appeal

21:30 Overturning colleagues and why it is not personal

23:45 Irish courts, US courts and the politics of judging

26:26 Is great advocacy dead?

28:38 Retirement from the Supreme Court

30:41 Life after the Bench

31:22 Music, law and philosophy

32:47 Film and book recommendations

34:45 Closing thanks

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The Fifth Court marks Episode 150 with Part 1 of a wide-ranging conversation with recently retired Supreme Court judge, Peter Charleton.

To mark Episode 150 of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by Mr Justice Peter Charleton, recently retired from the Supreme Court.

In Part 1 of this extended interview, he reflects on republicanism and nationalism, growing up near Seán Lemass and Theodore Kingsmill Moore, music, Trinity, the King’s Inns, devilling with Peter Sutherland, early years at the Bar, criminal law, defending accused persons, and the deeper questions of crime, morality and human nature.

It is a thoughtful, personal and sometimes unexpectedly funny conversation with one of Ireland’s best-known jurists.

Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook.

The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charlton Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of Dún Laoghaire.

Case 1: The High Court quashed a District Court judge’s refusal to convict in speed-limit cases, holding that judges must apply the law rather than substitute their own views on whether limits are fair.

Case 2: In DPP v O’Hara, the Court of Appeal upheld a murder and burglary conviction, rejecting challenges to DNA and search-warrant evidence.

Case 3: In a Hague Convention child-abduction case, the court refused to return a child to New Zealand because of concerns about the mother’s depression and risk of relapse.

This is Part 1 of a two-part interview. Part II will be posted next week.

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